What is the difference between online PR and traditional PR?

What is the difference between online PR and traditional PR?

 What is the difference between online PR and traditional PR?

another day another b2b marketer saying  something is dead cold calling is dead  outbound marketing is dead everything is  dead  but it really just depends on who you  ask  and pr isn't actually dead but  traditional pr is and the best b2b  marketers have completely changed their  approach to pr in 2022  on today's episode of demand genu we'll  explain how pr has changed why the best  b2b marketers are creating their own  coverage and what we've learned at  metadata from building our own media  company in the last year  demand genu was officially in session  let's do it  [Music]  so today we've got justin simon back  justin uh ever since you pointed out my  squeaky chair while we were doing the  intros of this i can't get it out of my  head so i promise i will have a  can of wd-40 by the next time that we  get together so it's not nearly

as bad  thank you  i knew it was bad but when justin told  me on  the mic that hey i can hear it then i  knew it was time so hopefully it's not  too loud for anybody who's listening  today but  let's do it i'm pretty excited about  this one this is a topic that you and i  are pretty passionate about and i think  a lot of b2b marketers are starting to  talk about this and  hopefully changing their approach to pr  but  this isn't going to be some  episode where we just proclaim something  is dead and not share  why it's dead or how it's changed and  how you can you know  switch up your approach so i'm looking  forward to this  absolutely same with me  so before we get started let's just  figure out what pr means to you and i'll  say what pr means to me because i think  everybody has their own definition and  oftentimes thinks of  the old wa

y of doing pr which we'll get  to here in a sec  yeah i think traditionally for me pr is  sort of a third-party function to try  and gain and build credibility in in  amongst your audience  um you know using  traditionally for me like using a  third-party agency to help try to drive  that stuff and get placements and  articles and you know links and all of  that sort of stuff from a traditional  standpoint  of pr but i think at its core  whether it's traditional or new pr the  goal is you're trying to build  credibility get attention and get in  front of your audience  all right  this feels like the scene in old school  during the debate because i really have  no rebuttal to that i think that was  perfect i think for me  it's it's really about getting in front  of your audience at the end of the day  and  and getting attention now we'll g

et into  getting attention versus earning  attention here later on  and then the other big thing is  third-party validation and just trying  to get credibility and oftentimes trying  to appear much larger than i think  companies may be  and  just punch above their weight class so i  think we're pretty much on the same page  there  yeah 100  so  for one of the conversation starters  that we have listed here it's a kind of  a a  it's a an ironic question that we ask  now because the way that we get  information today is completely changed  from how we used to get information so  let's say  ten years ago five to ten years ago it's  hard to even remember that long ago but  where would you get information when you  were trying to learn about a company  yeah i mean  still you could go to their website but  if you'd have to know about that compa

ny  to to even want to go to their website  social was still pretty new if we're  looking at 10 years ago  and i mean that was 2011 which again is  hard to understand like how even social  was but when i think about  2011 social it was still people  tweeting you know that they were mowing  their yard and eating whatever for lunch  uh and i don't even know if instagram  was like fully on the scene yet um even  at that point so and you can just see  how that stuff is has evolved but i  think as far as learning about a company  it was probably like reading  fast company and forbes and  you know a lot of like even traditional  magazines and getting ranked on the 30  for 30 you know 30 under 30 list all of  those sort of traditional type things  where you were  leveraging  other  media companies other  publications to help amplify you in the

marketplace that's kind of how i'm  seeing it or remembering it yeah and i  think  you know some of the things that you  probably were thinking up to maybe just  didn't mention were analysts  i think press releases i think events i  think a lot of things that b2b marketers  themselves didn't own they had to use  other mediums to try and get  their message out and  it was very rarely the website itself  like yes we would go to websites but for  everything that wasn't on the website  you had to go elsewhere to figure out  what they did or why it was important  and how it could help you  and i think  you also relied on how much buzz there  was  in the coverage to see how well a  company was either doing or not doing  and  it's funny because i couldn't consume  information  in like  any less similar of a way today than 10  years ago like it's

you know not to  sound like a boomer but i barely do any  of that stuff right now and it's crazy  yeah i mean it you even got me thinking  too like when i first started at my very  first company  at that was probably in the 2010 we had  um  we had multiple people whose roles were  evangelist roles that's what their title  was they i mean and this is very  traditional in terms of like what  microsoft still has i think they still  have these roles where  their job 90 of time is traveling  meeting with people meeting with  analysts meeting with uh users  starting focus groups which some of  those things are still  uh valid today but like to think of  that job and that role and in how it was  done 10 years ago it kind of just blows  my mind  it's wild yeah there's still a few i'd  say big names that i've seen that are  still doing that it's

usually for larger  companies uh ironically enough i think  one of our competitors their former cmo  now has that title i don't know how well  it's working but it's i kind of laugh  and cringe a little bit every time that  i see that title in b2b tech  amazing so we talked about  what pr means to us uh  like what the point is how information  and where we get it has changed over the  last 10 or so years but let's get into  the old way of doing pr a little bit so  let's expand on you know what we mean by  doing the old way of pr let me get your  take first  yeah i  think at its most basic form  you are  solely relying on people outside of your  org to pump up you in your company  um  if you think about traditional ways of  using  media there was there was really no way  unless you published your own magazine  or had your own blog that beca

me super  popular and people flocked to it and  understood and there were companies who  were able to do that early on  but outside of that you were solely  reliant on other people to help prop  prop up your brand because there was no  social media there was no  personal brand there was no  um  you know ability for you to make noise  truly in the marketplace without the  assistance of these other sort of third  parties  yeah and i think  two things come to mind for me right  away the first being  it used to be very expensive  a lot of it was pay to play and working  with you know big time pr agencies that  have really solid networks and can get  you that coverage that stuff is wildly  expensive and  many startups especially us with where  we are right now  we just don't have that budget so you  can't always resort to using stuff like  tha

t so i think cost definitely comes  into play and how expensive the old way  of doing good pr was  and then the other way that i was  thinking about it was  who controls the narrative so  oftentimes when you're pitching  you know publication or working with a  pr agency  you can do everything under the sun to  try and pitch them your exact narrative  of what you want them to say and very  very rarely  have i seen that what you're pitching is  what ends up in whatever publication  newspaper  you know video podcast you name it  actually is  so it's tough because you want that  consistency of your narrative and the  message you know permeating from every  single one of your channels and  it can sound one way on your website and  it can sound slightly different or  unfortunately completely different when  you're working with pr and it's  conf

using for people who are seeing that  message it's like wait i thought you  guys did this and now i'm hearing this  and  you don't want to make it any more  difficult on your audience when they're  trying to figure out you know what you  can do and how you can help them  totally and i think one of the reasons  one of the reasons it doesn't work  either is that the way  people  gain trust and gr and gain sort of  um  see you as an authority has changed so  now if you were to throw out nothing but  press releases  um  you know i think consumers  me as a consumer i'm just not interested  like that's not how i  i almost see that in the opposite way of  like oh like i don't really trust that  like  that's you know pr has it like you're  putting spin on it you're you know  you're putting a really nice polish on  whatever it is that's really goi

ng on  it's it's  pr is almost um for me like  the anti-authentic  way of doing something and so i think  that's why today it doesn't work because  the market has shifted to where  you know everything is driving toward a  really  the companies who are doing  uh marketing and probably pr quote  unquote right now really really well are  the people who are doing that in an  authentic way and who are connecting  with your audience being more raw being  more transparent being and  traditional per is the exact opposite of  that it's buttoned up it's tight it's  everything's clean everything every  every word in that press release has  been looked at and studied uh and it's  just the complete opposite of what  happens now all right let's rant on  press releases for a second and i'm  gonna start with a caveat of if you look  at the metadata websi

te you will see  press releases if jason were on this  episode i would tell this to him right  now if he listens to this episode he  will hear what i'm about to say  i had to get him off of the press  release kick when i first started and i  think  everything that we did he defaulted to  let's do a press release for it and i  think when you're at a  seed stage or series a company  is that the ideal  you know medium to get this news out  absolutely not but i think it jason had  to learn  that over time and also that every  single thing that we did didn't really  warrant a press release so i think we  used to use press releases way more as a  crutch when we didn't have a lot of the  things that we're going to talk about  here in a sec stood up and running so i  can't fault him for that i am very very  thankful that it took a little longer

than i would have liked but we have  gotten to this point where he's asking  for press releases  less frequently compared to what it used  to be and then the way that they're  written we just did a press release for  our b round announcement and again  yes we did the press release it was not  the focus of the announcement but you  still have to play the game to some  degree how are those things written well  you make it sound as best as you  possibly can  you stretch it as far as you possibly  can you bump up the numbers as far as  you possibly can  occasionally you have to run it past  some other group whether it's your  investors or  your ceo or whoever it may be and they  dial it back a little bit  and it just creates this perfect image  of what's going on behind the scenes  it is not perfect behind the scenes here  so why would we wan

t to try and dupe our  audience at the end of the day to say  that hey this is all sun and rainbows  and unicorns and all that like it's  not so i'm just very skeptical when i  see press releases because you and i  both know how they're always written  yeah and i think i love the point of of  talking about like yep we still do press  releases from time to time i think for  anybody listening who maybe that's  still a  really strong arm of what they're doing  from the marketing standpoint  like all the stuff we talk about on this  show um i think it's like baby steps for  you in that arena right like it did take  like you had said for us like yep we're  still working through that and what that  looks like at the last company i was at  we like made the initiative where it was  like we are no longer doing any press  releases pr we're cutting

our budget  we're doing that we had pr agencies in  multiple countries we cut those back  and i'm pretty sure within three months  i got asked like hey where's  we're gonna do this press release for  this product release right and it's just  like wait a second i thought we wanted  to not do those things anymore so  it's a hard habit to break when you're  in those types of things whether it's  you know doing big events uh in person  and sponsoring those or doing like some  of those tried and true tactics are hard  to break from time to time so  so before we get into the next part i've  got one question that's kind of off  script until  that person asked you where the press  release is  three months later  did you really notice any drop in  no you would have expected to see that's  crazy no and that's what's funny is and  and so and up unti

l the point of because  i mean  like you said traditional pr can be very  expensive when you're hiring these  agents like if nobody's looked into it  it can be very very like thousands and  thousands and thousands of dollars um in  your a month yeah a month yes  movie now times that by x amount of  countries that we're doing it's like it  gets crazy so  we literally had to justify  and try to try to look up all the  numbers figuring out like  uh and we'll talk about this later in  terms of like maybe some measurement  stuff but like  we couldn't even make a case to keep it  like  there was no way of like you know trying  to look at like brand lift or br like  how many people have looked up our  you know uh brand terms and whatever and  it's like there's no correlation between  doing this press release and any sort of  brand lift and so it

was like  the idea of trying to do that was uh was  insane and when it was the case to be  made was very easy to say yeah we need  to pause this which for me  uh you know as a content person like  that  because like i said it's just the least  some of the least valuable content for  the time and the roi that you're going  to spend especially like legit money  spent on some of these things the roi  just typically isn't there anymore  which is which is crazy so uh yeah no  i'm i'm interested you know we've talked  about the the bad way or the maybe the  traditional way that you don't want to  necessarily lean into anymore so  what what are some ways that you think  we should be moving what are ways that  we're kind of going through and  adjusting now that we've gotten off the  press release train uh maybe for the  last  eight months uh  yo

u know and and and that really hasn't  been a key part of what we're doing even  though we do do them it's not a key part  of what we're doing so what would you  say how should companies be moving  forward  so  i'm going to get into a little story  time here and it is a story about when i  was putting this outline together  yesterday morning so as i was going  through it and trying to get all my  thoughts in in order  i  found a i don't even know if linkedin  still does this anymore but it's those  like linkedin pulse articles or whatever  the feature is now where it's like your  own kind of blog if you will but it's  attached to your linkedin profile  and  it was titled something like traditional  pr is dead and who was it written by it  was written by  dave gerhart and when was it published  it was published in 2016.  and everything tha

t was listed there  still like i would say 98 to 99 of it  still holds true today and  i'll get into what that means but the  reason why i say this is  he  i don't want to say pioneer but like  they kind of charted this new  territory of how do you do pr  for a b2b sas company and and do it  using this new way  and the approach hasn't really changed  but very few companies are willing to  commit to that approach  are in a place where they can get sign  off from their ceo or their vp of  marketing to take that approach and it's  it's not that it's easy it's hard to  stay  committed to it and to consistently do  this but like if you do it well the  approach is out there like you just have  to figure out how it works for your  company and you have to commit to doing  it and you have to show up regularly and  you have to keep doing things  co

nsistently so what are those things i  think the first thing is actually having  something to say  and  when i say that i mean a narrative so  what is the point of view that you are  trying to get out into the market and  how can that point of view help earn the  attention of your audience not just get  the attention because i think the  problem with old pr is  a shotgun approach to whatever bad  messaging you have or bad story or even  just no story is blasting that out into  the market and hoping that some people  are going to take notice or find that  interesting so the first thing is really  having a strong narrative and a point of  view and having something to say then  the second thing is well how do you get  that narrative out into the market  whether it's podcasting which i think is  probably the  biggest driver of this for us  wh

ether it's  organic social whether it's using your  own employees to get out there and build  their own personal brands whether it's  the founder brand  there are so many cost-effective ways of  doing this now where you can get in  front of your audience  ideally at as little of a cost as  possible because social media is really  free at the end of the day and then two  you know you don't have to rely on  someone else to shape that message for  you like you can go  and consistently get that message and  that narrative out into the market and  just lead with expertise and show people  that you don't need to wait for a  publisher or a pr agency or some media  publication to say  metadata you know helps b2b marketers  we're just going to show you how we help  b2b marketers and we're going to lead  with that expertise  so what do you think is

in that case what do you think's  holding people back from doing this  is there you know what you had mentioned  maybe it's a ceo is it  yeah i think it's i think it's two  things i think it's  one getting  the ceo and the executive team and  really the  cmo or marketing leaders not on board  it's getting them comfortable with it  because it is new and it is different i  think the best way to do that is to show  examples of what good looks like because  i've found you know definitely here at  my last two companies whenever you show  executives hey this is what best in  class looks like very rarely do they say  i don't want that it's like once they  see that it's like yes i want that so i  would go find you know the examples of  drift doing it gong doing it other  companies that i admire and go show them  hey this is what good looks like

and  that's a very easy way to get them to  sign off on it and then the second thing  which i think is probably  the most important aside from getting  sign off  is just having something worthwhile to  say like it's coming up with that  narrative it's coming up with something  that's truly differentiated and unique  in the market and that part is really  hard so you have to figure out who your  audience is what matters to them it's  really just good marketing at the end of  the day but then you have to figure out  that narrative and how to push that  consistently every week every month  every year and that's the hard part that  i think a lot of companies don't have  figured out now  we have just gone through this whole  narrative exercise i think we're giving  it a really solid college try right now  is that narrative perfect probably no

t  is it good enough for now i sure as hell  hope so but we will see how well this  works and how we need to adjust it over  time  yeah having an opinion as a company as  an organization and especially from a  marketing perspective is massive and i  think  it's scary to have an opinion because  and even in life because when you have  an opinion you're going to alienate  somebody and as a as a company and as a  marketing team the last thing that you  feel like you want to do is alienate  somebody and and and not say you're for  the  the audience right like oh i really want  to we just add our core really want to  be for everybody  um and so i think that's what holds  people back i know for me like that's  that's a struggle that i've had to deal  with at previous companies and even you  know it's a strong it's just it's hard  to do right it

's hard to have an opinion  um because you know you want to be you  want to be right for everybody um but  unless you actually have that point of  view  take that stance understand from a  culture as a company culture and as a  marketing team like this is where we're  planning our flag this is what we  believe is true  um  you're just gonna sound like everybody  else and it's going to be really really  hard to stand out and it's  you know you're going to be focused on  what your competitors are saying and oh  what are they doing and you know how how  do we counter what they're talking about  um so when you are when you're truly  understanding what your point of view is  what your opinion is you can just you  know go whole um in on that and not  really worry about the rest of what's  going on out there because you're you  believe in what y

ou're saying  i dig it i think the the other thing  that makes it difficult and i'll tease  this out a little bit before we get into  q a because i know somebody submitted a  question on this is measurement and i  think measurement makes executives very  uncomfortable about this  because it is so much easier to say hey  we got a mention in the wall street  journal or we got a mention in  techcrunch and  here's you know the article and here's  the readership and here's the reach and  all that stuff  with the new way of doing pr  it's not always quantifiable you have to  kind of you know trust qualitative  feedback and and and see who's  replying to  linkedin messages who's you know  commenting on linkedin post who's  replying to the emails that you're  sending out  is that stuff happening more frequently  than not is it happening from the

right  people and like it's a really tough sell  and i think that's something we  admittedly struggled with with gill at  first too because he's an engineer you  know at his core he wants to quantify  everything so  telling an engineer turn marketer turned  ceo that hey we can't quantify  everything you have to trust us here  that is a huge leap and we stumbled a  bit when we first tried to do that with  him  yeah i i totally believe that um so i i  want to i want to get into  a little bit of of really practical what  we're doing here at metadata and really  kind of like pull the curtain back um  because you touched on some of the  things  um you know like this podcast and other  stuff that we're doing but i really want  to deep dive and and help people  figure out now that we're not focusing  on this like what are we doing like even  on

like a weekly basis a monthly basis  what are we doing to actually like move  the needle  what do we do as an org to try to pull  those people together um  and and do pr  differently  yep  so all right i'm writing some notes down  because this is a good question that i  was kind of prepared to answer but i'll  hopefully give you a good answer here  so i think a couple things i think the  first thing is  uh we can start with the podcast so the  podcast for us really is a pillar of  that and what we are trying to do  by way of this podcast is lead with  expertise so that you can see and learn  from us firsthand  and over time  see that we're the  experts and i hate calling ourselves  experts because we're not we're just you  know  we learn and we share what we're  learning figuring out figuring it out  with everybody else you're not with  e

verybody else so like i  we're not gurus we're not you know  experts any of that but we're just  leading with expertise and we're showing  you as opposed to just saying hey we are  the experts like you would in a press  release  and  you know we're i forget how many  episodes in right now but it's gotten  better over time the the uptick in  feedback that we've been getting from  people listening to the episodes from  replying to our emails like all that  stuff like those are the leading  indicators that that show us hey we're  headed in the right direction  now  we'll have to see how the podcast  evolves over time and the types of  topics that were you know recording  episodes on with this new narrative but  like there's a lot of good that's that's  coming from this right now  now  for us  is it about and i'll flip it back to you  here in

a second is it really about  people listening to the podcast at the  end of the day  i would say no as long as you're doing  all the other things that that you are  doing and leading right now to then take  this message and get it out into all the  other channels that you used to have to  rely on press releases or traditional pr  to do  yeah um i think podcast feeds do matter  because i think where and that and  that's some of the change too is you  know even for us  um you know our content strategy is is  led by a podcast it's not led by a blog  you know even that is an interesting  flip for maybe some some people  listening um  so we drive everything at a core level  um every single week through the podcast  and everything else comes off of that so  but the idea behind that is people are  listening on apple and spotify to not  only thi

s show but a bunch of other  shows and music and other things they're  on youtube we post these videos on  youtube we post shorter versions on  youtube because that's where people are  at you're on your phone you're checking  out stuff you're searching things you're  trying to figure out how to do uh better  marketing that way so we want to show up  in those feeds and then people are on  social so we post the we get a bunch of  clips put for every single uh episode  and we post those out not necessarily  even with the idea that somebody's gonna  even watch that whole minute clip  but they're gonna see  mark's face jason's face they're gonna  hear us they're gonna hear um what we  have and i think that's a huge  differentiator um a lot of i've been in  multiple conversations this year with  other companies and they asked like oh i  know i

need to do a podcast like why is  everybody saying i need to do a podcast  um and it's not that you have to do a  podcast but the effort it takes to to  put in versus the roi you get on the  back side of  you know being able to show up and like  mark said have your face your voice  in an authentic way  being shown to your audience  every single week sometimes multiple  times a week um  that's really really hard to uh to beat  right now you know i think uh  because what it does is it builds that  instant connection with your with you  and your audience as a listener i know  the podcast that i listen to like i feel  like if i saw that person on the street  even you know host of the show if i  never had met them i'd feel like i knew  them  because i listened to their voice and  watch them on video and see them and it  would be like there's a

really you know  intimate connection that can happen  through these mediums that would never  ever ever happen in a traditional sort  of pr or even even traditional blog post  i dig it now i think the the big  i'd say take away from our approach here  to the new way of doing pr is really  leading with with expertise through  content if i had to simplify it really  quickly so we've got the podcasting side  of it i think the other thing that we're  really trying to work on is our own  original research  and being the publisher around that  original research instead of you know  relying on analysts and other outlets to  share that research  for us  and we released our benchmark report  last year we're working on it right now  and we'll have it out soon enough but i  think  leading with that type of original  research and and publishing that

and  owning that and cutting it up into the  two million ways that i know you're  gonna do  once we have that bad boy ready like  that is another way of doing you know  the new pr and being the publisher and  controlling that message and just  getting it out there  yep it's bet it's just a different way  you're adding the different layers of  expertise and then you are  this gets thrown out a lot i know we  even say in here like becoming that  media company i i don't think there are  very many companies that are actually  becoming a media company successfully  yet but that's a piece of it where you  are  true it goes back to the the original  part of this you are owning your own  narrative and you are owning your own  um sort of sphere of influence and so  yeah original research surveys data like  all of that stuff just layers on to  ano

ther level of you being able to own  the expertise own the data and share  that out  and then the last thing when it comes to  content because i kind of want to riff  on this for a bit is  you know press conferences i had never  heard of a b2b company doing a press  conference up until we did it  a little less than a month ago  so that was our own attempt at trying to  be the publisher doing something  different and getting the message out  there in a slightly unique format so  did it work  i think people thought it was different  and i think it was a learning experience  for us and i think we'll probably do it  again  how well do we know it worked the honest  answer is i don't think we truly know  just yet but there were some takeaways  that we you know got from that press  conference and you know what we did not  want to do is a bait an

d switch of just  calling it a press conference when it  really was a webinar and we want to make  sure that whenever we do stuff like that  in the future when we're trying to be  that that publisher that it comes across  in that same authentic way  yep and i  totally agree yeah you want to be  authentic um  in all that stuff and i think  the last thing i'll say on this in terms  of one thing that we're doing and i  think doing pretty well is  um employee advocacy and having our  employees essentially be  you know brand advocates um  on social and  and  really help  drive the authenticity of the brand  through their own sort of  personal brands  and and i think the interesting part at  metadata is  we we do encourage sharing we encourage  uh people to share our content obviously  but also we encourage people to  you know build their own

brands and build their own thing and you  know  the funny thing about that is  that actually works  i think if there's companies out i mean  i just had a guy request a demo from our  exact icp 20 minutes before we started  recording by a linkedin dm to me it  works you just have to yeah consistently  totally and i mean i just you know just  saw yesterday uh you know some something  where somebody said like yeah like i'm  changing how we're doing content based  on what your you know what you've been  posting and you know if i ever need  metadata i'm gonna come you know i'm  gonna come over and get like it matters  uh in in a way  where  getting and allowing the freedom of your  employees to be able to share what  they are doing in their role not  necessarily share like hey here's our  new thing here's our new you know  whatever our blog po

st like that stuff  is okay it's better than nothing but  really leaning in and allowing your  employees to share what's on their mind  um  that that can be a huge driver it might  not it might not make a huge difference  like that day or that week but over time  consists consistently like it makes a  massive difference  i should know this have we done an  episode on employee advocacy yet because  we definitely should okay no yeah yeah  yeah soon added to the list yeah and i  think um  on the  employee advocacy note there's that and  then there's  this isn't a dg book plug because he  doesn't need it i think he sold enough  books at this point uh we love him but  uh is like the founder story and i think  working with your founder to get them  out there position them as the leader as  the expert you know making them more  accessible and an

d just showing the real  person that they are like that's another  way of doing this and that's something  that i won't share too many details yet  but you'll start to see more from us and  we've got something that works and we're  really excited about that but it's all  about just positioning your  company and your people as you know  like the leaders and and and leading  with expertise  by  showing people that expertise and  sharing that expertise not telling them  that you're an expert but actually  consistently doing that over time  because it's so easy just to blast out a  press release and say you know we're the  number one rated demand generation  platform yada yada that means nothing to  me and it means nothing to our audience  so you just have to show up consistently  and give a lot of value away  yeah and it i mean all that stuf

f ties  in it goes right back to the podcasting  the video the  advocacy the you know founder brand  stuff all of that ties in because it  what it does is it say i don't want to  buy metadata  i want to buy  into mark and jason and gil and you know  what i mean i want to buy into that  you know culture i want to buy into that  whole system i want to you know that  that company it's why it's why apple  succeeds so well you know you're not  buying a laptop you're buying a  whole world within that you know sort of  apple environment that you know when you  open it i mean they they're the experts  at it right like when you open that box  you feel a certain way  yeah you know and they've thought about  it from that standpoint so i think like  oh yeah on the on the personal side it's  the exact same thing where it's like i  don't want to just b

uy into a company i  want to buy into oh i like that i like  that guy that i follow on linkedin i  like you know i like her i like what she  has to say i'm interested in more about  their company you know that is is how  you know real traction gets made right  now  so  let's get into some of the questions  because i know we're getting a little  long on time here although i could talk  about this all day with you uh  the first thing is is this and we kind  of hinted at it earlier it's  everyone's saying become the media  company and are we there yet  no confidently we're not there yet is  that what we're actively working towards  and is our north star a hundred and ten  percent so  we are trying to become the media  company and i think are taking some  really good first steps but  for me this has been a huge learning  experience i've learn

ed a ton from you  who are some of the companies that you  think are doing this well and like where  are you getting inspiration from because  some of the companies that you first  shared with me i had no idea who they  were and i checked their site and  checked their content out all the time  now yeah i mean two  somebody was just asking me this the  other day two that i that i  two companies that i really like what  they're doing right now i love what  profitwell is doing um you know i think  they've got a really nice mix of shows  they lean in as the expert  they've built out their own  legit media arm they call it recur  so check out profitwell if you're  looking for inspiration in terms of how  they're doing it  if you really break it down it's not  complicated and it's not complex a lot  of their shows are  what you would sort of co

nsider a  traditional  um sort of interview or back and forth  show  but they build really cool sets they've  got you know really cool ideas the  angles are interesting um  and they just talk about different uh  different areas of the company um  and different things that resonate with  their audience so i think that's one  because they're doing multiple shows and  multiple streams at once the other one  that i i really just like what they do  because i think they're super authentic  and and they're doing it the right way  is wistia and i think wistia you know uh  chris savage the ceo he like leans into  it he hosted one of the shows they were  doing um  and they've really built a culture  around video helping people get better  at video um and doing the same the same  thing as is what profitwell's done which  is sort of trying to build o

ut a media  arm they have a whole separate um  almost media company outside of their  traditional marketing team which is  super interesting like just the way  they've structured their team  is super cool so  i like what they're doing and then we're  where i get inspiration even outside of  companies is i look at  um honestly like individual creators uh  i love to look at individual creators or  individual  brands like there's certain youtube  channels like i joke about it all the  time you send me these all the time  i watch like  golf videos and car videos on youtube  and like  what you know how they create shows and  create content when they're not selling  products is super interesting to me  because that's what i want to be able to  do i want to create content that's  interesting helpful useful uh  entertaining  and not think about i

t as like i'm  working at a company selling a product i  want to be able to almost like man i  would pay to watch this  yeah you mentioned the the individual  creators and i think  you've kind of turned me on to this but  i found myself paying more and more  attention to  individual creators and what they're  doing and  perfect example and probably a perfect  perfectly polarizing example is gary vee  at the end of the day i mean some people  love him some people absolutely hate him  but i think when you look at how he is  approaching like the new way of pr and  the way that he  creates content and the variety of the  content and the formats and how  consistently he's publishing like you  told me  everybody doesn't have this luxury but  his team is enormous that's doing that  right  yeah his i mean his individual brand i  think at one poin

t i heard was like 20  some odd people but it might even be  more than that like he's got a ton of  people that are just working on that  brand so he's got a sub  you know company almost that's just  focused on putting out content  yeah it's amazing but yeah i think  outside of garyvee i mean there's  definitely some creators on linkedin  like i look at justin welsh all the time  and everything that he's doing and  seeing you know whether it's the videos  or the courses or really anything that  that gives value away and then positions  that person as the expert without them  calling themselves the expert like  that's kind of the name of the game  yep totally is  sweet all right let's get into the  second question so  i kind of alluded to this earlier on but  i think one of the challenges of of the  new way of pr is is measurement so how

does measurement play into this like how  do you know it's working or not working  yeah  measurement is tough uh  but i think like i i mean honestly  though measurement was tough for  traditional pr like i said like at the  last company i had to had we spent  probably a good two months like trying  to dig through the data and we bought  really big expensive i mean  really expensive pr software  i don't know like the hint here maybe  everything around traditional pr super  expensive  but like  you know just really expensive stuff to  try to track and look at all these  things and at the end of the day we  still like  leadership still had questions that we  weren't able to answer  so  um you know i think  when you're thinking about pr brand all  that sort of stuff there isn't this  really defined like  metric it's not google ads it's not se

o  it's not performance marketing so you  really have to think about it in a  different way  um i know for me and i'll let you you  talk about it too but for me it just  comes down to a lot more of the  qualitative  um you know what are we hearing what are  we seeing you know even for like a  podcast is a great example like yep we  check the metrics we see what the  episodes are doing we you know check and  see growth uh engagement all that type  of stuff but  i mean at the end of the day it's the dm  that you get on linkedin it's the you  know the the comment of somebody posting  about the show that you've never  interacted with and you're like holy  smoke like they're listening to this  like it's it's super cool to see so  i think like sharing that stuff um is  super helpful too yeah i would say we  try to quantify as much as we can and

then  we fill in the gaps with  qualitative things that we can can share  so from a quantitative perspective  like looking at increase in direct and  organic traffic you know  year over year once you get a lot of  these initiatives kicked off like that's  a great thing to look at and then  the podcast metrics that you had  mentioned and then when it comes to  content like outside of the qualitative  things so replies to emails linkedin  posts  uh dms on linkedin like the other thing  that we do is we set up trackers in gong  to look for  individual employees names uh the name  of the podcast like other things that i  probably won't give too much away but  like setting up the trackers themselves  in gong  and you can see with pretty you know  reasonable accuracy  how often that's coming up who's  mentioning it are they from the right  ac

counts are they the right titles is it  happening more frequently and like you  can kind of paint the whole imperfect  picture when you blend those two  together but uh it's not  i would say that the measurement is  still fuzzy from the old way in the new  way i think for the new way it just  requires you to look at a bunch of  different things whereas the old way was  hey we had 10 mentions of this press  release  or this publication and this is the  reach or readership of that particular  publication and here's how authoritative  they are and that's it so like yeah you  could show measurement but at the end of  the day it's like what does this mean  does this mean anything like no like it  doesn't matter so yeah it's it's  imperfect but i think you can blend the  two together and you can start to build  trust in the company and get more

sign  off to to keep working on that stuff  yeah and real quick to to kind of wrap  on that i think  especially when you're starting out and  trying to like  uh  make the case to start a podcast or make  the case to try to do some advocacy  stuff um you know setting that  expectation with whether it's you're  maybe a  director you want to get it approved by  your cmo or you're you know trying to  get get this approved by the ceo etc  like really level set what the  expectations are for these things  so that when they ask for particular  metrics um and you were never able to  provide those to begin with you don't  find yourself  uh trying to  you know go back and uh and figure out  how to make that work  yeah you absolutely have to have that  conversation from the get-go or else  it's uh  the conversation doesn't go well when  you no it o

nly gets harder yeah yeah  it only gets harder oh my god well  amazing i think we're running a little  bit long here we could talk for hours on  this but awesome having you on again  justin make sure that you're subscribing  to demand gen you you know where to find  us and keep sending topics for us to  record on future episodes it's been  awesome  thanks jesse  you

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